Thoughts on Eric’s Advice on Sex?


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  • #423226 Reply
    Jennifer

    Hey all!

    If you subscribe to the emails from A New Mode, you probably saw a series titled “Are Men Evil?” last week. I am still catching up. I’m just finishing up the first email…(from what I see there are a total of 4 so far – makes me laugh a little!) Anyway, in the email, Eric talks about the timing of sex not being an issue in determining whether or not the man is willing to commit. I’m fairly new to the forum, but I see a LOT of you posting that having sex with a guy on the first date (or even very soon into the dating relationship) is a big no-no. Some of you believe this “dooms” a relationship. So, I’m curious what you think of Eric’s take on the matter. I will go first since I am putting this out there.

    My personal experience has been that it’s better to wait for sex until the relationship has had some time to develop. I am guilty of sex on the first date, or very early on, and none of those situations lasted very long…I believe the longest was a six month relationship after sex on the second date. While the longest I waited to be in a sexual relationship with a guy was 4 months and that relationship lasted 2.5 years and ended in a broken engagement. So what do YOU think? I’m pasting what Eric wrote below:

    “Frankly, I would be afraid to
    date a woman who would hold
    back sex to get what she
    wanted from a man (in this
    case, a relationship). Looking at
    it like that, it just seems
    manipulative and wrong to
    me…

    Moreover, I know TONS of
    people who are married now
    and started their relationships
    with sleeping together on the
    first date. Hell, some of my
    best long term relationships
    started that way.

    The timing doesn’t matter.
    Being self-sufficient, confident
    and grounded does.

    The make-or-break ingredient
    isn’t some arbitrary number of
    dates to wait before sex. Just
    isn’t that simple.”

    #423232 Reply
    Eric Charles
    Keymaster

    Something to consider: Have you ever noticed that people who enjoy shaming others also tend to be the ones most loudly proclaiming what you shouldn’t be doing?

    And most desperate to find people to agree with them?

    Moreover… do you notice how much time those people tend to have on their hands?

    My point: There’s lots of people who had sex on the first date who ended up falling in love, getting married, having kids and living happily ever after…

    … but they’re not going to tell you that they slept together on the first date.

    Why?

    What’s in it for them? Why would they put themselves in the position to be shamed and ridiculed… especially when they’re in an enviable people (and shamers can’t stand happy, successful people… so giving them any ammo is just foolish…)

    Stupid people tend to have loud voices, unfortunately… I’m not saying people with a different opinion than mine are stupid, necessarily, but I am saying that it’s important to acknowledge a heavy bias towards not wanting to be ridiculed for your choices.

    It’s never about when you had sex… it’s about the quality of connection and your compatibility with the guy.

    At the same time, sex doesn’t score you “brownie points” with him either. It’s not going to make you into “girlfriend material” if he didn’t see you as such prior to sex. Sex isn’t going to change his opinion of you, good or bad… the enjoyment and quality of the time he spends with you will though…

    Focus there.

    #423236 Reply
    kimf

    I agree with Eric, its about the investment he has already made in you. I slept with my kids dad the second night and he completely loved me and we spent ten years together. I’ve had sex on the first date and it got serious. I’ve also had sex too fast and it was only sex. But the timing of sex isn’t what did it. It’s the guy’s mindset. And yes, it’s preferable to build an emotional connection before sex, so there’s something there to fall back on after sex. Men don’t bond through sex, but through time spent together. So yes, he is less likely to pull away if there’s plenty of shared memories and good times. But I don’t think a woman blows it when she has sex early.

    #423240 Reply
    Alexis

    I feel like it’s just a case by case scenario. I think Lane said it best a few weeks ago. If you have sex with a guy right away act like you’ve never had sex with him. I think it’s a good rule of thumb to follow if you have sex earlier than intended. I personally like Kara King’s method of waiting 45 days and then doing the Prince Charming Test. It helps you weed out the frogs to find your prince so to say. But even if the guy does pass that test, that doesn’t mean that he’s you BF right away. It just means he gets to have sex with you and then potentially maybe your BF. I think we as women need to get out of our heads that sex will get you a boyfriend. It might, but it can definitely give you a broken heart. I can definitely attest to that!

    Have sex all you want, but manage your expectations.

    #423244 Reply
    Jennifer

    Thanks for adding more insight to this, Eric! As always, I appreciate your great advice. This one really stumps me, though. Mostly because of my personal experience, but also because as I’ve been dating and putting myself out there again, I’ve had two guys tell me that they find women who sleep with a man right away to be “slutty” or “trashy.” Both of those guys said they wouldn’t be interested in a woman who put out so quickly because they didn’t want a woman who would sleep with just any guy.

    BAM! There’s the light bulb, because a woman who comes across as willing to sleep with just “anybody” is not valuing herself nor making herself the prize.

    So the words they say are “I wouldn’t date a woman who wants to have sex right away,” but what they really mean is “I wouldn’t date a woman who didn’t act confident and see herself as a prize to be with.”

    I understand what you’re saying a little more, but I still think it’s a tricky thin line because even if the chemistry is there, if you don’t know someone very well when you’re first dating, the guy doesn’t necessarily know for SURE that the woman values herself.

    #423247 Reply
    Rose

    Problem is, we as women are socially seen as not relationship worthy when we sleep with as many men as we want or like when we are on “trial period” … That besides we tend to have feelings for men we sleep with as opposed to men, you guys can separate sex from love. Maybe some women can too but we’re culturally trained to look for a relationship in every guy we meet.

    I’m all about gender equality but it is what it is. I’ve had men asking me last time I had sex and how many (I know, they shouldn’t even ask but they still do) and I can’t lie to them, I don’t want to give the impression of sleeping with every man I see as a candidate so I withhold sex not to get a relationship but to protect my feelings and my value as a woman. I know I’m as valuable no matter how many sexual partners as I had but society doesn’t see it that way.

    I personally do not do it to manipulate but to make sure the guy won’t disappear the next morning.

    I don’t know, maybe I’m doing it all wrong because as you say, no matter if I do it right away or wait, I don’t get the guy anyways.

    #423248 Reply
    Eric Charles
    Keymaster

    Here’s a good rule of thumb:

    Guys who say that they find woman “slutty” or “trashy” if they sleep with a guy right away… make them wait…

    You can sleep with me in the meantime if you need to. I won’t judge ya ;)

    #423249 Reply
    kimf

    it is definitely case by case. And about valuing yourself, I think that may be a little outdated. A woman’s self value will be apparent, even if she chooses to have sex early. Men that judge a woman that way seem to not truly appreciate and love women. You can be confident, the prize, and still choose to have sex early. If you make that decision based on what you want and not in an attempt to get something.

    #423250 Reply
    kimf

    niiiiice….I’m in!

    #423252 Reply
    kimf

    and Rose, its nobody’s business! I never get asked that and if I did, he would be gone.

    #423253 Reply
    kimf

    Eric, make them wait? If the guy I’m dating calls a women a slut, he’s out. Men that love women don’t use words like that. A real man is not afraid of a woman’s sexuality.
    and you definitely appear to be in that category…

    #423256 Reply
    Khadija

    Honestly, it’s about your level of comfort with the person.
    There were men that I slept with early on and others that I waited until a exclusive relationship was formed.
    For me I’d rather wait until he’s my boyfriend before I sleep with him.
    The last time I went decided to give that a go without the title, the relationship fell apart soon after. While I can’t say he was just there for sex. I sure did not like how I felt after.
    In the future I’ll stick to my intial view on it and wait.
    However, you have to do what works for you. There is no holy grail of rules when it comes to dating.

    #423257 Reply
    Alexis

    But what about the women that don’t value themselves? I have friends who only want to have sex with a guy because she needs to feel good about herself. It puts me in an awkward position because I’m very sex positive, but then I’m just like, “wait why are you doing that. You’re just going to feel bad about yourself?”

    Rose, I truthfully lie to guys when they ask me stuff like that haha. I usually say “Oh I had sex awhile ago with a boyfriend.” Well I did have sex awhile ago…3 months ago…that’s a while…and he was a boy and he was a friend. There you go!

    #423258 Reply
    Eric Charles
    Keymaster

    @kimf – Lol, agreed… I was more saying, “The only men who you would need to worry about would be men who say that…”

    You’d be pleased to know that men who call women sluts don’t tend to get laid very often if ever… funny how that works…

    But there’s a lesson in that for everyone: If you put negative, judgmental energy out there, you don’t tend to get good responses…

    #423262 Reply
    Rose

    I know, it’s nobody’s business and nowadays when they ask my answer is graphic, I start counting my fingers like a kindergarten kid and continue with the other hand… Sometimes they get it very quickly and start laughing, I wouldn’t discard a guy that asks because he could do it out of curiosity, I just wait and see how things go.

    Now the hard thing, there are not many quality men that also respect a woman that’s highly sexual, it’s hard to find or I’m looking in the wrong places.

    #423264 Reply
    Eric Charles
    Keymaster

    @Alexis – Whether her surrogate solution to not valuing herself is drugs, alcohol, sex or sticking her finger in an electric socket, the problem isn’t the drugs, the alcohol, the sex or the electrical sockets… it’s her poor decision making process stemming from her internal “not OK-ness”…

    I’ve found it very hard to get people to address that head on until after they’ve suffered long enough and don’t want to suffer anymore… I try my best to guide people and show them how to be effective and avoid suffering (sometimes that helps), but sometimes the best you can do is be a good friend and support them (not encourage them, but make sure they don’t feel alone/abandoned).

    People make mistakes… people suffer… and if they’re lucky… they learn eventually… the sooner, the better.

    #423267 Reply
    Alexis

    Agreed!

    #423275 Reply
    Greenie

    I’m going to chip in my two cents here…

    I know there are some dating coaches and dating books out there that recommend waiting 90 days to have sex. The reason for that is that a woman should get to KNOW a guy before giving him her body, especially since women tend to have feelings far sooner than men due to oxytocin being released during sex. This is a bonding hormone (which men also have) but for them, they can have as much casual sex as they want without developing ANY feelings. It’s just how they’re wired up. And it makes sense from an evolutionary perspective.

    But I digress… I do think it’s important for women to get to know a guy before sleeping with him because of what I wrote above. That does NOT mean I think they should wait any particular number of days (or dates). That should be up to the woman. She should only have sex when she is READY and not before. If a woman sleeps with a man and he leaves her the next day and she feels devastated, then she is NOT ready to have sex. Either she should be sure of where she stands with him or must be willing to just have sex with no strings. Simply hoping he’s going to think or feel the way she does is setting herself up for failure.

    By way of a personal example, here’s what happened to me… I’ve been dating a great man for 5 months. We’ve known each other for 7 years as friends (we have a lot of mutual friends too.) We never got involved before now because we were both in LTRs with others. When he first started flirting with me last fall I wasn’t ready to date and even though I was really attracted to him, I discouraged him from asking me out giving him all kinds of excuses. Like I didn’t want to take a chance and ruin the friendship, and a few other things. At first he agreed but then we just got more and more attracted and the touching began. Then kissing… then he asked me out on a date and I said yes. So several months had elapsed between the first time he flirted with me and our first date. But YES we had sex on the first date! And we are still together and falling in love. Our relationship became exclusive after two months — before that we were free to date others but didn’t. I should mention that we had a discussion before sleeping together that I would not entertain FWB or casual sex, only dating towards a relationship. If he had not agreed to that, I would not have slept with him and we would have just remained friends.

    Bottom line is that I think Eric is right, it doesn’t matter WHEN you have sex, so long as you’re emotionally ready and can handle the outcome if it turns out you part ways.

    #423276 Reply
    redcurleysue

    I think it is very individual…but the reason I counsel women not to sleep with men off the bat is because they get emotionally involved and then get heartbroken…they believe that the man should love them or at least really like them…

    Most women I know think sex has meaning….they do not look at sex the same way as men…

    Obviously there are women who know better than this…but when you look at all the posters and how they view sex from the female point of view they are using sex to get a relationship. Then when the man leaves they are confused since sex=relationship.

    They do not “get” that men do not see sex the same way…they really don’t. It took me years to “get it”…but for a lot of women who have not gotten it yet it is better that they do not put so much of themselves on the line only to be emotionally hurt. In their best interests I caution not to have sex early for their own sake. If they want a relationship sex only muddies the waters.

    #423283 Reply
    Mae

    Timing has nothing to do with it. It’s the angle the woman’s coming from, whether she withholds or gives in. No rules, no guidelines, no schedules. THAT… is where we get into trouble because it becomes a game.

    I truly believe men will detect your intent behind waiting if you are using it (consciously or unconsciously) as a manipulation tactic. In other words, the “I’m gonna make you wait because I can” attitude will frustrate the heck out of him. Especially if you’re heading into Sloppy 3rd Base and expect him to NOT want to test drive the car. This works for us; this doesn’t work for them. Not saying you should give in to appease him, but men can sense if you are teasing them and making them wait for the relationship title if that’s your tactic, or if you are giving in to succumb to his frustration. He will just know; it will radiate from your being.

    On the other hand, if you are a confident woman who knows what she wants and if not having sex too soon is just part of who you are, then be clear and own it. Nothing wrong with that either!

    Bottom line: Stick to who you are. Don’t withhold anything. Be clear from the get-go. The right one will be the right one if you are confident and fulfilled in your own life.

    #423284 Reply
    Rose

    I came to the conclusion, I’m not emotionally ready for dating/sex/relationships. Lol … I need to be stronger and smarter. I’m pretty good with all people, I’m tough and smart but when it comes ti men I’m hopeless and clueless :( lol And there are lots of women in my situation, fully functional but romantically challenged.

    #423292 Reply
    Lane

    Good topic.

    Eric I know you’ve slept with women knowing they would never be your GF and I think that’s the crux of the problem today. My generation was a bit different as they were ready to settle down at a younger age (around 24) than they are today (around 29 based on statistics) so there’s practically a decade of “time keepers” or “time wasters” (the new age term being tossed around) where men aren’t looking for relationships, just some short-term fun and its in sharp contrast to a woman’s biological clock that’s screaming to settle down—one of the stark differences between our species.

    I agree that its not “when” you have sex but whether or not, its whether the guy’s even considering or close to settling down that seems to be a denominator (at least in my experience) and the lady needs to know what he’s looking for before she throws herself onto that hormonal roller coaster (another difference between us) that may end in derailment.

    Asking a guy who doesn’t know you well you enough (especially if you just met such as a first date) isn’t going to elicit that type of information, so what’s the best SIGN a woman can look for that would determine whether she’s a one-night stand or potential GF material?

    I would love to hear your thoughts on this!

    #423293 Reply
    Greenie

    Rose, there’s nothing wrong with waiting until you’re ready. (And waiting until you find the right man, who is worthy of having sex with.) The wrong ones are easy to find. I’ve had my share of those and that’s why it took me a while to be ready to date again. Actually 8 months was not enough but I found myself dating again because the right man appeared. I had been working really hard on myself so I would be healthy enough emotionally to date again and to feel happy in my own skin, and then wham, there he was!

    The thing I forgot to mention earlier is that my current boyfriend was in a LTR until 3 years ago, and until he started dating me, he was still sad about it. Since the breakup he was only involved in casual sex and FWB — I am the first person he’s actually been on more than a couple of dates with! He never committed to anyone else. He wasn’t actively looking for a relationship in fact. Neither was I. I wasn’t looking to even DATE as I was still healing and learning to how date properly and choose the right man.

    Very soon into this relationship I started having a lot of fears and insecurities (due to baggage from the past). This resulted in me trying to sabotage the relationship – almost forcing a breakup because I couldn’t deal with my emotions. I explained what I was going through to him, we’ve had some very honest conversations, even while we were just “friends” (pre-dating). So he knew what he was getting into when he decided to date me. But lucky for both of us I was able to see what I was doing and snap out of it. Plus I have a guy who is very supportive of me. I tell him every day how much I appreciate having him in my life, and how much he has helped. All of this has only made our relationship stronger.

    Bottom line: it doesn’t matter when you have sex; it matters how you relate to one another and what kind of relationship you agree to have. A man should be able to tell you very early on what he wants. But you have to be willing to listen and believe him. If he says he doesn’t want a relationship, he means it. Usually that means he doesn’t want a relationship with YOU, because with the right woman, he WILL want a relationship.

    #423303 Reply
    Rose

    This last guy said very clearly he did want a relationship with me but he wanted me to move closer to his place, I cannot do that as I have joint custody of my children and dad lives five minutes from my place. He didn’t like to hear that but my children will always come first. Now I’m only talking to men that specify they want a relationship but they are just a few and it’s very hard to get to like them because most have baggage and haven’t gotten over it. I need to be really patient because relationship guys don’t grow on trees. OK, all men have the ability to be relationship dudes but it’s the timing, most are not ready or are not ready to try again.

    #423316 Reply
    Greenie

    Well Rose, I don’t know if this is true or not, but I believe we ALL have baggage. The difference is how much we have worked on ourselves, how aware we are of our issues, whether we let that stuff infect our relationships, and how supportive our partners are of our individual and mutual growth. (But it’s on us to pick the right men.)

    For me, I am committed to EVERY DAY working on my stuff. I am constantly looking for ways to heal from the past, to improve my mental health and my relationships in general. I don’t want to have any more toilet bowl relationships, not do I want to be unhealthy in body, mind, and spirit. I work on my physical health too (diet, exercise, lifestyle.)

    In the past three years I quit smoking, quit drinking, and quit a toxic relationship. As a result, my life is considerably better. Is everything perfect? No, but I am much better off and looking forward to the future. My boyfriend says I’m an “awesome girlfriend” so I must be doing something right!

    I know for a fact that if I hadn’t worked on myself I wouldn’t be in this relationship right now. If you could see me a year ago (when my last relationship ended) I was a complete mess. I had to go through a grieving process and then do a “post mortem” on my relationship to see where I went wrong and figure out how to NEVER end up in that position again. It’s easy to see yourself as a victim when someone does you wrong; but it’s only when you see the part you play in things that you have a hope in things turning out differently next time.

    I’m really grateful for all the wonderful advice I’ve received from this site and many others over the last year. It’s been quite the life-saver and eye opener! There is an old saying that “pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.” We often have many options that we don’t see because we behave like powerless victims when we’re not. When you read books like “Your Erroneous Zones” and “The Four Agreements” you start to see where your power really lies… it’s within you, and it always has been.

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